Fire away guys.

Magus: Forsaken should be a poster child for antimissile extensions. While OC30 reloads, you're stuck without dekes and though your results may vary it caused me a whole lot of problems when Space Pirat caught on and threw 8 hi-acts on my tail in response to every OC volley. I'd go so far as to trade DD20 and R10 for A50 extensions. I know - now - that I could lay a deke and cycle back to the OCs, but normally I need the orbits out ASAP so I can get as much of that big-ass reload over with before the enemy's back up my nose again.

Space Pirat made fun of Forsaken briefly for having less of a record than the other two, then cursed its very name as I forced the point home that the missile defense flaw - not my ability with hovers - was the deciding factor.

Forsaken 2, Crossbones 0

And Crossbones is carrying missiles now. LOL.

Sorry to hear things didn't go so well with my baby. Perhaps I should have given detailed tactics when it comes to missile avoidance...my mistake. But yes for the most part you did catch on as to a great tactic. There are 20 decs there, don't be scared to drop one or two before using the orbits in areas without cover. In areas with cover (like Military District), pop up attacks are best. Firing orbits at an approaching or retreating opponent is childsplay as you can fire them even when you don't have a line of site. If they fire missiles in answer, simply drop down and allow the building (or any cover) to take the brunt of the missiles for you.

Also the time needed to switch from oribts after firing isn't that great unless your opponent is right on top of you. I generally take to the air and fire them and then drop a dec on the way down well before missiles arrive from mid range. If your opponent is close, well that's when Forsaken comes into his own. Simply fire off a set of orbits from behind cover, drop a dec as quickly as you can...and break cover to engange all the while circle straffing to get at their flanks and behind, while letting loose with everything. You don't want your buns hanging out there for too long though, so doing this before making a quick retreat is best. Often followed by setting up an ambush, or letting the energy refresh and going back out on the offensive. Hi-Acts or missile boats can cause problems to be sure, but they are by no mean Forsakens' achilles heal if you can keep your wits about you.

Once an impression of vulnerability re: the OC's reload time leaked out, it was really hard to play around it. Not just on missile defense, because I found that I was pretty vulnerable to jousting as either of the MI008 cores could close range in a flash on hearing the OC fire a barrage. Missiles, guns, either way it's pretty dangerous... but missiles more than guns.

Dropping a decoy early is a pretty common tactic between Space Pirat and I... normally what happens is the attacker tries to ram the decoy or get it behind them. The MI008's OB range helps with this maneuver. Perhaps adding ECMP would de-fang that attack though, since it sorta depends on holding your lock until the decoy's destroyed. Re-acquiring the lock will waste precious time, probably enough that Forsaken can get decoys or the MG back online and resume the attack.

Welp, I won't tell a lie, you guys got me absolutely baffled about this missile thing-a-ma-bob. Magus does just as he describes in our sessions and I intentionally try to capitalize and it NEVER works out for me. Some times I'm working with the ever so fast WIZ/RAY set-up. He normally fires those orbits from miles accross the board and has usually just popped up from cover, is in some sort of serious retreat, or making an airborn climb. On the off occasion that he fires them before a CQ confrontation he's normally coming in airborne and is able to side step "most" of the missiles, taking minor to marginal damage. The only missile combo I've seen him struggle at all with are supported verts. On top of which the EO's and GRSL do pretty well in making sure trying to joust him is a pretty healthy task. It's never more than a blink of the eye before the MG800 pipes in. I'm going to try this some more this weekend, but if it works as well as you explain, I'l be darn surprized. Definately two different schools of implimantation in play here.

Sure that's all fine, given proper distancing and cover. Halfway through a Military District battle, cover's pretty sparse... and distancing against MI008 ACs was a pretty tough act when they have nothing to gain from letting me cruise around at midrange. Perhaps it was just a mistake to use the orbits at all? I don't know.

Ok what cna I do to improve Moose Dragon? I have been thinking about MM16/1, ARFL and bigger relations. Would that help? any ideas

I thought MD was pretty solid. XCD100 and GSL56 make for brutal short range damage, and the frame is agile and fairly well armored. ARFL would definitely be a step down from GSL56, which is IMO the most powerful left hand gun for OB-core ACs. It's still a good weapon... if you REALLY needed to free some wieght, it might be a good way to go... but not unless something really brilliant pops up.

MD's missile set didn't really impress me: the R10s are really easy to waste and maybe not all that effective versus other fun extensions like MALUM or XSP, the HAs sorta detract from your ability to attack because I find them better at mid-short ranges rather than long. All in all I was trying to rid myself of the HAs and extensions ASAP in order to drop the AC's wieght and put the brutal close range gunnage to better use.

You might be on to something with MM16... your guns don't do the long-range spam thing particularly well, while MMs do. Even against someone who's actively using decoys you'll often see one missile out of each set go after the real target. Rather than using a set of relations, I'd suggest MALUM for making the XCD more available. I don't remember many power shortages, but they'd certainly be crippling if you found yourself bashing away in short range and suddenly lost your laser.

HOw did i get 7 points? o_O

Uh, by pwning everyone?

You swept one of the opponents, and beat the others in 2 of 3. It was all about the sweet OB and sniping with the powerful and accurate guns. Your missiles were funny, I'd start a match just OBing all around firing useless single missiles; switch on relations at any sign of Space getting fed up with my routine and moving too far from his dekes. Usually one, sometimes two volleys would hit... then I'd dump the launchers regardless of remaining ammo.

Well Blue Tornado didn't do as well as I hoped, and 1337 has the same opinion as me on the XCG, it's kind of hit or miss. I think I'll just take the design back to my old one using the XCG10 which is a little more accurate but has serious ammo limits.

I think a good left-hand weapon would have saved the day for Blue Tornado... for the torunament he was in, I still had the shield rather than the sniper rifle written down. A lot of those matches ended up really close and having one rock-solid weapon in the mix would have sealed the deal easily.

Looks like my AC's sucked pretty bad...oh well...

I liked Crisis a lot. Look at his record... he kicked EVERYONE's ass outside in the Aerial Ruins. He could bounce in and out of cover no matter what direction he was headed, and it totally saved him from high-pressure offenses even without having OB available. Unfortunately I didn't feel right about overruling your choice of home-stage. There wasn't enough running room or cover and he got bum-rushed to death by cores with monsterous damage rates.

I don't know what to think about Desert Storm except he looked really cool. Overboost and turnboosters would have let him dictate the terms of close combat battles much better.

Wow... Deimos apparently did pretty well. Not too surprised about Panda, though. I kinda figured it'd have trouble with energy management. Oh well, Deimos, so far, is among my most "busted" designs. When I made it I was looking to make as mean as possible. Looks like I succeeded fairly well, I can't wait 'till I actually get to pilot it.

[EDIT]
1337, do you see any necessary improvements for Deimos?

Kuroi: I haven't used XCG10 enough to really comment, but just off the top of my head you want the extra ammo/kill cap from the 20E. It's not that the 20E is a total shot in the dark, so much as the current AC sometimes fall just a couple shots short of a kill. XCG10 almost garauntees that you'll fall short against a real heavywieght... sure it's energy damage, but it's not a lot of energy damage.

Corsair... improve Deimos? Please don't. More seriously, see if you can get away with the MX002 core... we didn't have much reason to fire up the OB, so orbits might be fun or even helpful.

Moto... I had an idea for Crisis last night. If you don't want to go with an OB core, try squeezing CROW on there. You can flick them on the first 5 times some MG/GSL setup like Deimos rushes at you, and use their bad positioning to rain rifle fire all over 'em. It puts you that much closer to breaking the other guy's weapons at no cost to you.

Ehh, I dunno, I'll look into an EO core, but I really like having all those optionals and the ability to joust or cut'n'run if need be. I have another EO design I've been tinkering with that I'll throw into the ring with Kodiak, maybe. I've got awhile before you get around to those fights, though.

Lost by a tiebreaker...dagnabbit. I guess I owe Delv an apology for not giving Requiem the credit it deserves. Good fight.

All of this week's lightwieghts were surprisingly competitive with eachother.

Aurora was probably the weakest link in the chain. The missile set was way too easy for the other lights to dodge/decoy and beyond that all that it had were the dual shotties. To its credit it still won 4 of 9 battles fair and square.

Zophiel... it just shows how far you can get by taking one concept and running it all the way out. It managed to stay surprisingly safe from even Angriff, the main stumbling blocks it hit against this crowd were unfavorable arenas.

Agnriff... Space's first comment about this AC was "someone means some freaking business here". And it was true. The 'griff was one vicious AC once the fight went to close quarters, but in larger environments the chase:shoot ratio became quite unfavorable.

Requiem... Space Pirat underestimated it as well. An old-school power setup but very much in the fight for Silent Line. HZL50 is still a VERY worthy left hand weapon, a bit inaccurate but excellent at forcing evasive maneuvers and even better at punishing mistakes.

1, 2, 3, 4.... 1, 2, 3, 4... 1...... 2..... 3..... Oh God.

I've been been firmly placed behind the 8-ball against SoD's 3 lights.

Sometimes, timing is everything.

Crimson Fury and Admantrue: Guys I'm totally sorry your ACs got poned so horribly. That's just the way the cookie crumbles though, they put up a ferocious fight but there's only so much one can do in the face of that much armor moving at that much speed.

I think both ACs could go somewhere with the right revisions....
Suicide Boy should definitely consider a much-less-draining form of attack. Part of the huge margins on all your losses is that I couldn't fire or even blade for a lot of the match, I was so busy running my butt off to avoid getting perforated. I was thinking RF150, and hope to score some equipment breakage.

Thunder Stryk... would you consider making this an Op-I AC? At the very least you need better boosters to stay away from WAKE ACs. Ideally you get CNG300 on there to waste time while the enemy's got dekes out, and for holding your own against guys who want to go close-combat on you.

wow, is it me or did Night Zero win ALL OF ITS MATCHS. that's crazy ver crazy. awesome design Thorne

Actually, ThunderStryk did quite alright as far as arenas go. The Limestone Caves, Structure, Abandoned Factory, and Disposal Site all offered a wide range of cover/perches for the little bird. The only area I wasn't working to my advantage was the Shoebox.

Against Broken, which is NOT faster than ThunderStryk, I was happily making all sorts of range and raining down all sorts of missiles. Unfortunately he's (at most) 4 frames away from popping a decoy at all times, so it was hard to make anything at all connect for a while, and when I finally started landing hits they weren't at all hard enough to make up for all the effort. Night Zero (I think) is actually faster than ThunderStryk with the same boosters. Overboost was the only way I could create any distance, but straight-on missile shots weren't working out offensively so I had to mix rises into the mix and I couldn't make it work. Ask Space Pirat, I nearly had a fit while playing Suicide Boy, and again (and worse) for ThunderStryk.

I think of the Intensify/Chaingun thing this way: everyone else carries decoys in order to counter or even cancel missile offenses. Even missile boats should acknowledge that and pack some sort of direct-fire in order to have a functional CQ deterrent. WAKE mids and low-end heavies made Silent Line a whole new ballgame, a much harder one, for missile boats.

or if you don't want to GO OP-I maybe some rockets or Orbits for at least some none missile (and E) damage.

The biggest benefit of Op-I is that the AC can no longer be run into the ground by WAKE mids. Important with those weapon arms. The chaingun's a non-issue if TS can manage distance properly but IMO the additional variety would help.

I think 1337's spot on with his Intensify / FLEET suggestion - this design practically begs for FLEET speed and the nerfed NER begs for the Intensify optional. The screens really aren't helping your paper thin defense much (only about 1200 each E and S soak). I don't think anyone would cry foul if you put FLEET / Intensify on this version and dropped the radiator to SA44. It seems the only sensible thing to do and it wouldn't even change aestetically.

Do it man...
Do it...

Anyway, thanks for the props Pupster and sorry that the random stage didn't work out a little better for TS.

After the Fight Club match, thirteen37 had a wonderful suggestion to help take that SA44 (no CLPU) chink out of Night Zero's armor: overweight by adding the XSP cooling extensions and drop either them or DD/20 depending on the situation. Apparently, SP runs his staple in the same manner - thanks guys! (the card has been updated).

So...uh, aren't we glad I didn't put D. Thunder in the SL Ghost Tourney, like I originally considered.

I've since decided to put the ES/015 on and use the extra weight for DD/20.

Thunder had his work cut out for him. If anything, you're lucky I've been playing essentially the same AC for a year or more. Getting swept by Mr. Broken was a distinct possibility, as were two horrible losses to HeavyKiller.

ouch, both my ACs were slaughtered any suggestions for moose dragon or heavy killer? for the moose I am thinking of maybe the XCB/75 and GSL/72? more mirdange chipping? or maybe the UN8 boosters?

Heavykiller... more than anything it's us that need practice, probably. Neither Space Pirat nor I play hovers a lot... that said, just look... HK only won 2 matches but came SO CLOSE in another 3. One thing you might think about is swapping Karasawa/MOONLIGHT for XCP or PK (armor killers) and a left hand gun you can carry and use at the same time. IIRC XCP/SRFL50 should fit, same with something really frightening like PK/GSL56.

The Moose performs well against similarly heavy ACs, but has a heck of a time with these outlandishly heavy guys. Both of your weapons put you right inside MG800 ranges, for example. I like what you've got, but at the same time I know it doesn't work against super-heavies. Maybe the XCB/GSL set you mentioned will work. GSL72 is a great way to spend 300WP.

I am actually VERY happy to see that Night Zero did so well. While it does have the MG800, it does NOT have the TIN arms, the BEE head, or even all that much total defense. It's ALSO an EO core, even better. It totally owned my MOB core, MG800, solid-shield using monstrosity, which should make some people do a little bit of thinking about exactly how overpowering this concept is in the first place.

Yeah, and all of that damage was going through Teh Broken's side shields too. I didn't rely on bypassing or breaking them at all. Between two WAKE heavywieghts, the EOs definitely helped more than they hurt, especially GRP's huge energy blasts. The last thing Space wanted to see was Night Zero cutting into his line of travel as he jockeyed for vertical position.

IMO GSL56 has always been more broken than most other parts or weapons in the game. It has a long and illustrious history at my house.

Seems to me that EO designs are easily the most effective counter to the MOB heavyweights that everyone is so terrified of. They all have huge shell-biases, and energy eo designs can easily out-damage any weapon set that a MOB heavy can field.

All the high-efficiency parts have always had huge shell biases. HADRO, SOD... some of the more common examples in Silent Line. Heck, if you're willing to forget about e-def check out MHL vs TIN.

For heavy killer what about adding TM60 and OC15? then lowering blade to 2551? you can either go Ksaw or quickly dump orbits and go rocket blading? could get ugly if your opponent has a lot of spare weight though.

There is only one modification I have come up with for Styx that I really like in functionality. It replaces the GSL/72 with the GSL-56, and to make up for the weight difference drops the A10, and changes the head and arms to TIE and MACH, and with the weight difference you can chuck on the CR14 for a perfect fit. Armor goes down a bit but you get a better gun for up close. I don't like how the thing looks that much, but it does have a bit of an edge in firepower, and it's really the only decent competitor I've been able to think up within my criteria. Any thoughts on the idea 1337? I've already mentioned it to Magus and shipped off the version originally entered in the Fight Club to him for his Book of ACs, but I'd still like to hear some thoughts on the idea.

Well I'm perfectly satisfied with Mr. Broken's results even though it didn't fare outlandishly well strictly by wins.

It lost by close, or very close margins to the super defense tank - the other broken design.

It lost by a close margin to a Sawa user and beat it once - the gun that's practically made to take down mega-heavies.

The other (more normal) design was bascially swept by large margins.

I'll be the first to say the broken designs aren't guaranteed wins, but it sure does feel like your designing options to have a fighting chance are a lot more limited. GS56s (usually these bypass shields), some energy weapons, cannons, more or less. Maybe HG200 or HZL50.

Puppydog: If you really want to go with OW weapons for Heavykiller, keep the sawa and overwieght it with SOL and COTTOS. You MIGHT want to change your core to ORCA, because you already travel at OB-like speeds when you get going, and with the energy-efficient weapons you've got you could catch tanks in a sawa/orca rush that would add up damage "stupidfast".

I'm not sure if SoD's changes to Styx really endear me. I tried out GSL56 on a lighter AC recently and was unimpressed. Keep the 72 IMO.

Hey what if for Moose I used the ORCA, MARE and TIN? slighly better drain and a weirder design

Pick range or defense. You need a lot more of one or the other. If you go by defense, go all the way up with a heavy RJ... TIN... high-def head... even GROA if wieght allows. Grab that stat and crank it.

Aww, MAN! So close!

DK2 has been gunning for a position as my staple almost since I made it, replacing the aging Grenade-arm RJ I've used since AC2 was released. It's had fantastic results in 2 FTs now, and I was kinda hinging on it's performance here to help me make the final decision. I think I need one last topic in the concept forum, and then I'm going to crown a totally new staple for the first time in 4 years.

I'm also glad that sim got his ass kicked. I really should have thought to ditch the ammo pack and go VOLAR, but the thing's a piece of crap no matter which way you slice it. OP-I != godly.

Congrats to Manticore, and I'd just like to add: "almost had ya!

That really does sound like a great fight, under 1000AP off from DragonKnight taking the win away from my broken AC, sounds like a sure fit for a staple to me but maybe you would prefer the originality of a weapon arm design. I know that originality is a fairly big thing for me also, which is why my newest core which is close to being a (or the) staple came out the way he did.

It's also interesting to here that the BUD arms alone can deal with the average AC. I was using all the extra orbits because I couldn't really test out any of his weapons with how dumb the AI is, it wouldn't ever give me an accurate reading. I've been thinking of dropping one or both of the backmounts (maybe getting some more Def) and then still dropping to the PETAL, this info may seal that deal.

Keep in mind that orbits were USELESS against a faster AC. You'll definitely want to throw something else on your BUD setup just to deal with that.

Congrats to Timerlane and Symphony on their fight club entries! I kinda predicted that Desert Thunder would be the one to beat and frankly it disturbs me slightly...

Nice to see the ORCA went so far - looks like a few of us are giving it a bit of lovin'
Now if they could give the STO back a little bit of it's juice it'd be so nice (The NER is a lost cause IMO due to OP-I).

Thanks of course to thirteen37 and Space Pirat for having the patience to run all these exciting battles. Not to mention the most helpful feedback - Cheers!

Battle 9...about what I expected.


Can I get a w00t w00t for the Redeemer?

You can from me. It's entirely debatable whether Op-I helped that AC or not, since Pirat dumped the cannon at the start of every round. The sawa/napalmhowie combo was devastating and extremely hard to stack defense against.

I thought I might need the firepower, in case one of you picked the shoebox or Parking Lot for my battle against GO-SHUT. Maybe OP-I isn't really nescessary...especially when you consider that Redeemer only has around 3300 def. points, which is inexcusable for it's size and weight. Can't wait to read some details on battle 9.